Are we going to continue this discussion, or is it over?

Are we going to continue this discussion, or is it over?

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My biased attitude? I see a resemblance in you to the old Italian fascists :1 And no, it's evidence that it did not originally form part of the culture. And no again, it's not revisionist, this is what is taught in courses on African history at all the best universities. And thank you, but I do know what Bantu refers to. I've even spent some time in both southern and eastern Africa, as a matter of interest. And I know you're sulking Luca, but what exactly is your point on contraception? That was merely an illustration to try and assist your understanding of the issue.

My biased attitude? I see a resemblance in you to the old Italian fascists :1 And no, it's evidence that it did not originally form part of the culture. And no again, it's not revisionist, this is what is taught in courses on African history at all the best universities. And thank you, but I do know what Bantu refers to. I've even spent some time in both southern and eastern Africa, as a matter of interest. And I know you're sulking Luca, but what exactly is your point on contraception? That was merely an illustration to try and assist your understanding of the issue.

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Well, this is certainly a tragic end to what had a lot of potential for a meaningful discussion.

Well, this is certainly a tragic end to what had a lot of potential for a meaningful discussion.

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And this is my last message to you Graeme.

Untill you won't leave your biased attitude I will discuss with you no more. I will ignore you. Feel free to dominate this group. Best wishes.

And this is my last message to you Graeme.

Untill you won't leave your biased attitude I will discuss with you no more. I will ignore you. Feel free to dominate this group. Best wishes.

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I suggest you to make a research on Wikipedia about "Bantu", you will find many interesting things to discover.

About the traditions of migrating populations ... they may change during thousends of year ...

AND

THE FACT THAT BANTU POPULATION HAS CHANGED ITS TRADITION ABOUT FGM IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT FGM IS A SOCIAL / CULTURAL MATTER .... you are proving here that FGM is not a religious matter ....

thanks Graeme. You have put the word "end" to the discussion.

I suggest you to make a research on Wikipedia about "Bantu", you will find many interesting things to discover.

About the traditions of migrating populations ... they may change during thousends of year ...

AND

THE FACT THAT BANTU POPULATION HAS CHANGED ITS TRADITION ABOUT FGM IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT FGM IS A SOCIAL / CULTURAL MATTER .... you are proving here that FGM is not a religious matter ....

thanks Graeme. You have put the word "end" to the discussion.

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Graeme!!!

About Bantu tribes you are near to the "revisionism", tomorrow you will tell us that the Shoah was a fairy tale invented by a Babylonian rabbi ...

"Bantu"

"Bantu" means "people" in many Bantu languages, along with similar sounding cognates. Dr. Wilhelm Bleek first used the term "Bantu" in its current sense in his 1862 book A Comparative Grammar of South African Languages, in which he hypothesized that a vast number of languages located across central, southern, eastern, and western Africa shared so many characteristics that they must be part of a single language group. Perhaps the most salient was the organization of many parts of speech in concordance with a set of noun categories, by means of inflected prefixes. Thus in isiZulu, a paradigmatic case for Bleek, the noun root -ntu is found in nouns such as umuntu (person), abantu (people), ubuntu (quality of being human, humaneness), and verbs and adjectives describing the nouns agree with them: Umuntu omkhulu uhamba ngokushesha (The big person walks quickly), Abantu abakhulu bahamba ngokushesha (The big people walk quickly).

Bleek's basic thesis of linguistic affinity has been confirmed by numerous researchers using the comparative method.

Graeme!!!

About Bantu tribes you are near to the "revisionism", tomorrow you will tell us that the Shoah was a fairy tale invented by a Babylonian rabbi ...

"Bantu"

"Bantu" means "people" in many Bantu languages, along with similar sounding cognates. Dr. Wilhelm Bleek first used the term "Bantu" in its current sense in his 1862 book A Comparative Grammar of South African Languages, in which he hypothesized that a vast number of languages located across central, southern, eastern, and western Africa shared so many characteristics that they must be part of a single language group. Perhaps the most salient was the organization of many parts of speech in concordance with a set of noun categories, by means of inflected prefixes. Thus in isiZulu, a paradigmatic case for Bleek, the noun root -ntu is found in nouns such as umuntu (person), abantu (people), ubuntu (quality of being human, humaneness), and verbs and adjectives describing the nouns agree with them: Umuntu omkhulu uhamba ngokushesha (The big person walks quickly), Abantu abakhulu bahamba ngokushesha (The big people walk quickly).

Bleek's basic thesis of linguistic affinity has been confirmed by numerous researchers using the comparative method.

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Contraception is not a valid comparison.

FGM existed before Christianity and Islam came and these religions in north Africa adopted it, or simply accepted it as a political strategy to gain the support of the rural populations, religions do this, remember that Christianity put Christian festivals on the same days of the pagan festival, just to make people feel "at home".

Contraception came well after than Christianity and Islam and Christianity and Islam haven't adopted it ... Some Christian Churches accept it.

And Contraception is a positive matter, FGM is a negative matter.

Contraception is not a valid comparison.

FGM existed before Christianity and Islam came and these religions in north Africa adopted it, or simply accepted it as a political strategy to gain the support of the rural populations, religions do this, remember that Christianity put Christian festivals on the same days of the pagan festival, just to make people feel "at home".

Contraception came well after than Christianity and Islam and Christianity and Islam haven't adopted it ... Some Christian Churches accept it.

And Contraception is a positive matter, FGM is a negative matter.

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NO Grame, :)
I follow your reasoning about contraception.
First of all you are just now enlarging the reasoning to whole Christianity ... anyway.

You change, as usual, what I think and I say ...
I'm not saying *that Islam is one homogeneous entity*, I have always said the other way round, the fact that Islam is not homogeneous is one of the bases on which I base my reasoning about the possible reform ...

NO Grame, :)
I follow your reasoning about contraception.
First of all you are just now enlarging the reasoning to whole Christianity ... anyway.

You change, as usual, what I think and I say ...
I'm not saying *that Islam is one homogeneous entity*, I have always said the other way round, the fact that Islam is not homogeneous is one of the bases on which I base my reasoning about the possible reform ...

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Another few words on the subject though. Among the migrations of Bantu tribes through Africa, there were groups that spread eastwards and then southwards, reaching South Africa in the pre-Islamic period. Why, if FGM is pre-Islamic and cultural, did the Bantu people of southern Africa leave it behind once they'd migrated beyond the limits of Kenya and Tanzania? If Bantu tribes practiced FGM as a part of their culture or religion, then the people of southern Africa should practice it on a similar scale. The fact that they don't shows that it was a later introduction. On the reverse side, the Bantu tribes of Kenya and Tanzania have been in contact with Islam and Muslims for almost as long as Islam has existed.

Another few words on the subject though. Among the migrations of Bantu tribes through Africa, there were groups that spread eastwards and then southwards, reaching South Africa in the pre-Islamic period. Why, if FGM is pre-Islamic and cultural, did the Bantu people of southern Africa leave it behind once they'd migrated beyond the limits of Kenya and Tanzania? If Bantu tribes practiced FGM as a part of their culture or religion, then the people of southern Africa should practice it on a similar scale. The fact that they don't shows that it was a later introduction. On the reverse side, the Bantu tribes of Kenya and Tanzania have been in contact with Islam and Muslims for almost as long as Islam has existed.

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Roche, the demonstrations:

1. I think you should be demonstrating that they practiced it BEFORE they came into contact with Islam. You're saying that in the absence of evidence showing culture is not the cause, culture will be accepted, without evidence, as the cause. You're asking me to show that god doesn't exist. I have however given some evidence showing that Islam is a likely cause.

2. What evidence of FGM do we have from outside Egypt before Islam came into being? Up to you to present that. If you don't then we have none, and we assume it was contained in Egypt until Islam came along. Same as point 1. really.

3. Of course there are other explanations. One of them is that the moon was in just the right phase. Islam is more likely though.

4. What relevance? How does a failure to do so lead to the conclusion that genital mutilation is un-Islamic?

Roche, the demonstrations:

1. I think you should be demonstrating that they practiced it BEFORE they came into contact with Islam. You're saying that in the absence of evidence showing culture is not the cause, culture will be accepted, without evidence, as the cause. You're asking me to show that god doesn't exist. I have however given some evidence showing that Islam is a likely cause.

2. What evidence of FGM do we have from outside Egypt before Islam came into being? Up to you to present that. If you don't then we have none, and we assume it was contained in Egypt until Islam came along. Same as point 1. really.

3. Of course there are other explanations. One of them is that the moon was in just the right phase. Islam is more likely though.

4. What relevance? How does a failure to do so lead to the conclusion that genital mutilation is un-Islamic?

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